Sach O, he’s running this rap shit. Break out a post and when it happens: that’s it.
All of this hand wriggling over poor old Hip hop. It’d be sad if it wasn’t so funny. It seems that ever since Kanye West released his inner Phil Collins on record, the rap blogosphere lost its collective shit. “Major labels will only release singles with autotune!” “Singing will kill rap!” “Hipsters are rounding up rap fans and shipping them off to gay-disco concentration camps!” “WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?!” But never fear, the sky isn’t falling, in fact it isn’t even raining and just like last time we’ll get over this.
(If you don’t remember last time, here’s a crash course.)
The year is 1998. The internet is the hip new thing. Rap fans congregate on primitive message boards to discuss real-audio streams from Hiphopsite, the REAL winner of the LL vs. Canibus battle and the never-ending epic that is Biggie vs. Pac. But mostly they just bitch about how rap is dead, how Mannie Fresh and Swizz Beats are killing beatmaking and how they’ll never be another group like _______. They complain that Nas fell off. They complain that southern gangster rap is killing New York Hip Hop. They curse rap-rock with the vitriol of religious fanatics and they predict that their beloved art form is doomed.
Sound familiar? It should. Where southern rap fans once proudly stood up for their scene in the face of New York’s hate, they’re now bitter and worried about their brand of rap. Hipster rap or non-rap or blog rap (whatever you want to call it) is seen as an imminent threat cloaked in a bright hoodie, ready to destroy the very foundation of Hip Hop music. “They sing! They dress like white people! They ain’t hood!!” Sounds an awful lot like “They talk funny, their drums are wack” and “they ain’t got lyrics” to me.
Well, Maybe They Were Right About Nas Falling Off
Every 10 years (give or take) a new crop of emcees takes over the scene and every 10 years the previous generation fails trying to keep up. The original party-rapping class of 78 stood helplessly as Kane, Rakim, Chuck D, KRS, Ice Cube and Kool G Rap built on their styles and made them obsolete while the Bomb Squad and Prince Paul did things with samplers that the original DJs couldn’t dream of. The inventors of rap couldn’t stand the cursing and violence from the west coast (let alone the idea of the west coast) and their careers were ended as their fans began looking to these new cats for inspiration. They birthed every emcee from ’88 to 98 but those emcees ended any chance that the OGs would ever have a chance.
Then the class of 98 came of age 10 years later with the memory of the crack trade fresh in their minds but viewed through younger eyes. They were inspired by the crime tales of their elders but also their business sense. They formed labels, aspired to blow up, simplified their slang to move units and name dropped brands. The now older ’88 generation complained bitterly and underground rap became a viable alternative for a while but ultimately southern-oriented gangster rap became the principle face of Hip Hop. New York continued to hold on (G-Unit, Diplomats) but the successful rappers from all regions now looked to the south and the west for inspiration as the city that birthed rap (mostly) ran out of ideas after the Blueprint.
And now? The same thing happens again.
In ’98 New York had shined for so long that it couldn’t possibly continue to reign over rap without falling back to rejuvenate itself. The same can now be said for gangster rap which has dominated rap commercially for 20 years. Right now coming up with a new approach to the genre is like squeezing blood from a stone and already young lions are circling their prey, eager to make their mark on the culture. They care little for regionalism having been fed rap from every era and area through the internet. They’re even more entrepreneurial than their elders but recognize that the bling era is over and that this sort of gaudy behavior can’t exist in a post-download post-economic crisis world. They’re musically open-minded and their beats are as different from Mannie Fresh’s as his were from Premo’s (which is to say, closer than you think). They realize that the last decade’s biggest hits from acts like Lauryn Hill, Eminem, Outkast, Timbaland, The Neptunes, Kanye West and Gnarls Barkley came from thinking outside the box while the quick pop hit is offering diminishing returns. They were probably bumping Nelly and Ja Rule a few short years ago though. And yeah, they love looking fly. Almost as much as Jay-Z liked looking like a coke kingpin.
New and Improved Jay-Z
It’ll take a while for this new generation to take its place and with the music biz dying, it won’t be easy for them to break through. But it’ll happen, if not now then soon and hopefully it’ll involve a new distribution model that’ll bypass the now paralyzed major labels. The Def Jux’s, Stones Throw’s and Bay Area labels of yesterday will inspire kids just as much as Death Row and Bad Boy sparked the late 90’s boutique imprint boom. And of course, not every elder emcee will disappear: it took Shawn Carter 10 years to go multi-platinum (88-98). Dwayne Carter did that from the get-go and is only now reaching his prime. Imagine what he’ll accomplish in the next decade?
So whether the blogs acknowledge it or not, it’s a great time to be a rap fan.
Oh and one last thing. The hipsters everyone complains about? (I’m hella guilty). Don’t even waste your time on them. They may latch onto a few acts to boost their cred (Ghostface, Clipse, Devin, Wayne) but they’ve never even remotely come close to discovering or blowing up a Hip hop act. Their influence is minimal and they aren’t a tenth as important as they think they are. Like the housing bubble, when the true value of these ugly, tasteless trust fund kids is revealed their whole steelo will collapse. Just because they share a taste in hoodies with rappers, that doesn’t make them down. You can already see them squirm as Wayne prepares to unleash his brand of rap-rock on middle-America: the ultimate in un-cool and they can’t do a damn thing about it.
It might be a good idea to brush up on your Limp Bizkit hate though. The Nu Metal kids were as bad as the hipsters and THEY could actually sell out arenas.
26 comments
Jordan says:
February 4, 2009 at 1:41 am (UTC -7)
Geez, I kinda wish all those damn hipster rappers posed more of a threat. I mean, I’m not a huge fan of most of them, but it would be nice to see them actually make an impact among people who don’t check nahright every day. As it is, I feel there’s very little new going on, and this is more worrisome than what those guys are wearing.
Labels seem pretty reluctant to break new artists these days. How many rap debut albums were there in 2008? Off the top of my head, I can only think of The Knux, 88 Keys, and uhh… Ace Hood (which I didn’t listen to) and 88 Keys has been around producing for 10 years. (Not counting someone like Elzhi, who’s put out albums in a group) This makes XXL putting 10 guys on their cover each year absurd, since only a couple will get to put out albums. (The guys on the 2007 XXL list who had yet to put out an album were Papoose, Saigon and Crooked I, none of whom look any closer now). Who knows maybe 2009 will be different, and we’ll all see what Kudi, Mickey Factz, B.O.B. Charles Hamilton, Asher Roth etc can do with an official album, but I kinda doubt that, and I think you still have to put out an album or at least have some genuine hits in order to have the kind of impact that the south has had for the past 10 years.
Anyway, because these guys have done nothing (or close to that anyway), it’s weird to read press like this saying that they’re this movement that’s gonna take over. It’s fine if they do, but if they don’t it just seems like a lot of undue attention for guys who made music that wasn’t especially great, and a lot of people don’t really care about, other than for its possible next-big-thingitude.
Tray says:
February 4, 2009 at 2:15 am (UTC -7)
Eloquent, but I would be way more reassured if you actually named some of these “young lions” you’re alluding to, or suggested who today’s analogues are to the then-hated-on, now widely accepted Mannie and Swizz. That being said, I can only guess, and… while Wayne is a young lion, there are major drawbacks, like, no consistent album, everything since Carter 3 dropped has sucked, excess autotunage, etc.. Then I guess there are folks like Wale, B.O.B., and if you’re of a certain persuasion OJ Da Bondsman – I mean, Juiceman – and Gorilla Zoe. All whom I’d put in the category of “promising but unlikely to bear major fruit,” with the possible exception of Wale. And then there are guys mentioned above like Mickey, Kudi and my namesake, Mr. Roth, who I wouldn’t even call promising. Oh, and of course there are your rappers in “waiting for a second album to drop” purgatory like Killer Mike and Joe Budden who are way more talented than most of the rookies (not that I can stand Budden, but I recognize the talent, I suppose), but they’re already in their 30s.
Alex Ludovico says:
February 4, 2009 at 2:17 am (UTC -7)
As an artist who also gets unfairly stuck with the hipster tag (you may remember me as Ill Eagle), I feel its only necessary to weigh in here……
People aren’t judging on a curve, which isnt fair. When Southernplayalistic dropped, there wasn’t an Outkast single leaking everyday. Jay-Z didnt have to deal with immediate feedback from commenters who judge an artist based on every song placed on Nah Right. They will pose a threat soon enough, and when 3 or 4 of those cats actually make an impact, I hope all of you eat your fucking words. Cudi’s “Day N Nite” was poised to be the NUMBER 1 SINGLE in the UK. I cant even think of any hip-hop artist who’s come close recently. And I’m sure it will be taking off here rather shortly. Granted, alot of these cats are a little too big headed. Until a major album drops from one of these cats that are actually different, I would prefer the talk ceased. ACE HOOD DOES NOT COUNT!
Sach says:
February 4, 2009 at 4:25 am (UTC -7)
Jordan: I’m saying that the actual hipster CRITICS are irrelevant (you know, the white guys on indie sites that are supposedly changing rap for the worse but really aren’t having an impact beyond other white guys on indie sites). Those rappers (Mickey, Kudi, BOB, Knux, etc) have as much of a chance at being the future as say, Slaughtahouse or Killer Mike.
Tray: well you don’t really seem to like current rap music at all and nothing leads me to believe that you’ll like what’s coming next either. So…you’re fucked from that perspective. But there are a bunch of rappers with potential. Some of them are over thirty, others are mad you. Doesn’t matter to me. Like I said, it took Jay-Z 10 years to blow up: who cares if Joe Budden’s star turn is in 2013? But like I said, rap music in 10 years will be as different from rap music now as rap music now is to stuff from 98. If you want stuff that reflects the old style, there’s plenty of quality blogs offering fantastic raritities from back in the day. I recommend Thun’s T.R.O.Y blog.
douglas martin says:
February 4, 2009 at 8:02 am (UTC -7)
jordan: i think it’s going to take a while for the hip-hop-loving masses to catch onto the hipster rappers, but it’ll eventually happen. most of those dudes are spitters, regardless of the width of their pant legs. the cream always finds a way to rise to the top.
Thun says:
February 4, 2009 at 9:45 am (UTC -7)
Nobody, and I mean, nobody in 1998 was complaining that “Southern gangster rap is killing New york hip Hop.” At best, people wondered aloud “when did New York start bouncing?” And hardly anyone was espousing the concept that rap was dead. If anything, 1998 was awash with the notion that rap was filled with possibilities – commercial, artistic and otherwise – that were just beginning to unfold.
The contrarian “fuck the mainstream”`mentality – of which there several distinct REGIONAL variations – was supercharged with a desire and ethos for getting the “real” music out to the public by any mean necessary. This is the time period when people begin earnestly reconciling their sense of artistic truth with the concept of hustling nobly to get heard. On all levels of hip hop culture too, not just in the rap industry. Also, there was still a steady outpouring of music from NYC that has mad appeal and remained true to the “grimier” aesthetic of the previous half decade, so there really weren’t too many people on some Chicken Little shit.
This is the era when the Ego Trip book is published (hardly a regionally biased publication), when the Rock Steady Crew is resurrected, when people in the NYC metro area start incorporating music from other regions, signed or unsigned, into their regular rotation. This is also the exact same era that hip hop related scholarship is creeping its way into the academy and the publishing world at a rate unprecedented. The public discourse surrounding hip hop is a given a huge boost at this time and 1998 was the first year I remember seeing ANY mainstream coverage of rap that wasn’t accusatory or condescending. Even the most die-hard anti-Badboy mean muggers were LOVING that aspect of life in 1998.
Literally hordes of personalities from rap’s old school who hadn’t seen a press microphone or a stage since the mid-80s were now frequently interviewed and celebrated in media outlets they hadn’t penetrated their first go-round. Kool Herc, Bambaataa, etc. were practically invisible until Puff Daddy forced unapologetic rap music into Midwestern living rooms. Anyone in 1998 with half a brain recognized that, and it was a sentiment frequently espoused at the many, many seminars and events related to discussing issues in hiphop that sprang up that year, where virtually none had ever existed before. The older generation, by and large, was not condemning rap wholesale; their protests against commodification and the coarsening of the culture were generally reasoned, balanced, and respectful of the inevitability of change.
Your sense that there was some kind of 1998-era backlash against the upper echelon of Billboard and/or emerging styles that is even remotely similar to ones occurring today (if they are in fact occurring – your whole characterization is completely overdetermined to me) is off in so many ways. The 1998 you describe in this post simply didn’t happen. You fabricated it. I know because I was there, even on the internet.
As far as the changing of the guard goes, I think your sense of how it’s happened in the past is so underinformed it is difficult to assess your sense of how it may be occurring now. Maybe it’s your intentionally vague and non-committal style of writing, but I can’t really call it. Same goes for your assessment of hipster rappers and hipster bloggers – you refuse to define your terms and so your arguments sound like shaky generalizations that are easily refuted by logic and most likely, reality.
Before you attempt to paint me as being resolutely anti-new rap, recognize that I listen to and enjoy plenty of it, every day. I just haven’t heard too many complete albums that blow my mind, which is fine because albums are for the 90s anyway.
Great Scott says:
February 4, 2009 at 10:16 am (UTC -7)
“Like the housing bubble, when the true value of these ugly, tasteless trust fund kids is revealed their whole steelo will collapse.”
brilliant.
Jay (d)eff Kay says:
February 4, 2009 at 10:55 am (UTC -7)
Great piece. Evolution isn’t a pleasant process, I guess. Especially for fans of dinosaurs.
That being said, I’m kinda annoyed that some blogger needs to post such a reminder every fucking year to calm the trigger happy doomsday criers.
Also, this whole fear regarding the power of hipster critics is getting excessive. This is basically just fair-weather fan attention, isn’t it? This type of hipster buzz either results in sales for a few rappers in the very short run or just dies out after some crazy viral blog buzz. I don’t really see how it hurts that much.
The only time I can see it really hurt is if artists themselves buy into this shit, and start specifically catering themselves to a hipster fanbase, under the assumptions that such a fanbase or critic circle is the route to take in order to succeed (I remember Noz had a similar discussion regarding G-side associating themselves with Diplo’s crew) Then they’re setting themselves up for disappointment. But aside from that, the whole ‘hipster critics are ruining hip hop’ argument seems overblown.
I don’t think something like Pitchfork hurts hip hop. I just wish they did more to help it.
Jordan says:
February 4, 2009 at 11:00 am (UTC -7)
Thun: Oh shit! But really, fascinating stuff. I turned 10 in 1998, so I wasn’t paying attention to that conversation so much and I’ll take your word for it. When do you think that kind of complaining started?
Sach: Totally agree about the critics. They’re importance has been crazily exaggerated recently, and the average person buying a Lil’ Wayne album doesn’t really care what Sean Fennessy thinks of it. I thought your next generation thing was about the hipster rappers and not Budden and Mike just because of your description and the fact that no old school heads are mad at those guys. (At least I don’t think)
I think Killer Mike might be the future actually, not in the way you’re talking about, but in terms of how rappers navigate today’s commercial landscape. Self releasing quality low budget albums, hustling, and making your web presence felt among people fiending for 8ball and MJG interviews seems like a better career path these days than dealing with all the bullshit of putting out a major label album. Weezy’s looking like the last rap superstar to me, and people who aren’t superstars don’t seem to be getting their albums released. Hopefully I’m wrong and Lil Boosie will become the next Jeezy and Wale the next Kanye and Rich Boy the next T.I. and B.o.B. the next Andre but I’m skeptical. (For those about to hate on Boosie: if you haven’t heard Bad Azz or Da Beginning in full, sit your ass down)
Douglas: When it comes to the hipster rappers, I’m not trying to diss, I’m just asking, how many of them will get to release major label albums, and can they have this huge impact if they don’t? I don’t doubt that if they put out good sounding major label albums with the right promotion they could become stars, but I don’t see labels willing to risk so much on relatively unknown quantities. Again, I hope I’m wrong and 2008 was just an anomaly like the 2000-2001 nba season in terms of rookies, but if not, it looks like there is trouble.
Also I mentioned Ace Hood merely as a rapper who released a debut album in 2008. I’m not counting him as either hipster or good. (Hipster rap as a term manages to be both convenient and useless)
Jay (d)eff Kay says:
February 4, 2009 at 12:25 pm (UTC -7)
wow, thun is out to son. Appreciate the perspective. I was like 12 or 13 in 1998 and most certainly not listening to hip hop in a major way. I wasn’t even in North America, so i have no clue about what was popping off either on the streets or on the internet. So when I tend to side with Sach on his piece, its admittedly based more so from the slightly vague idea that people have been complaining for the longest time about art scenes dying
I have at the very least, for the last six years heard people pretend like it was the worst year ever for hip hop, each and every year. But if I look at the ‘hip hop is dead’ conversations now, people often point to records from the same past 6 years ago as being great. I remember the south getting shit on, and now in 2009, i see blogs reminiscing about the glorious heydays of mannie fresh, juvie and the like.
So, with conversations like those, I find this vague idea of ‘people have been pessimistic and complaining for the longest time, almost regardless of history and circumstance’, to hold some weight.
Passion of the Weiss says:
February 4, 2009 at 12:46 pm (UTC -7)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcKxc-ij7Pw
Jordan says:
February 4, 2009 at 1:13 pm (UTC -7)
Sorry all, I overstated my case. Plenty of shitty rappers, from Rocko to Flo Rida to Young Berg to Tyga released debut albums in 2008, as well as the kinda intriguing Lil Mama. Maybe our hipster rapping friends do stand a chance.
douglas martin says:
February 4, 2009 at 2:14 pm (UTC -7)
jordan: i didn’t take you as trying to diss hipster rappers at all. and i totally agree with you about a lot of these guys possibly not being able to sign major-label deals and make a major impact on the marketplace.
but when i said, “the cream always finds a way to the top,” i was moreso referring to their status as legitimate rhymers. we’re already seeing sub-genres fragmenting in hip-hop just like the ones that actually belong to the hipsters like “indie” and art-rock. maybe that’s where hip-hop is going: a shitload of niche markets, where, in twenty or thirty years, ruff ryders vol. 1 will be only recognized by a specific sect of rap fan and become the rap world’s no new york compilation.
Abe Beame says:
February 4, 2009 at 2:45 pm (UTC -7)
Yeah, must say that with all due respect to Shadow and De La Soul I remember 98 as the year the streets re-established themselves on the charts. As absurd as it seems now DMX, Jay-Z and Swizz ran shit and Ruff Ryders kind of represented an anti-Jiggy Bad Boy movement, all taking place here in New York. Yes No Limit and Cash Money were out but it kind of served as a novelty as opposed to a legitimate threat. I remember Jay jumping on the “Ha” remix and Flex would drop enough Napalm on that shit to wipe Korea off the map every Saturday night. I think the alarmism you’re referring to was more like 2005 when the South legitimately dominated the charts and my Hip Hop & the Blues professor was proselytizing the end of days twice a week because some art director at BET said the lead single off The Minstrel Show was too smart to get rotation, Jim Jones and Slim Thug represented the Serpent in Revelations and rap died the day KRS-One fell off.
I had a similar argument about this with Brandon and Noz a week or two ago and used to argue with Raf about this all the time. It’s a tired argument. Since Hip Hop was created we’ve been lamenting it’s passing and then emotions die down and it all becomes history and then the new offense to our sensibilities comes along and the whole drama plays out again and again.
Sach I think the funniest thing about this post is YOU’ve lead this charge before, less than a year ago if memory serves correct. I appreciate your new perspective because I agree with you. (other than the Hipster thing, I think that whole trust fund/ironic listener demographic itself is a made up stereotype/cliche bloggers around these parts are way too quick to rely on as a “them” to point their fingers at) I think Thun is reacting to the pidgeon-holing. (which to be fair, reads like a misguided complement.) I also agree that this post is maddeningly vague and full of revisionism and forecasting, but one thing I’ll finally acknowledge is maybe there’s something to be said for writing these fuzzy, open ended blanket posts. I, and I think Thun spend a lot of time building and supporting arguments but you and Brandon have a knack for garnering response, and like it or not that shit is currency these days, a lightning rod if you will. Kind of like Hipster rap?
(P.S. The Knux are good)
Dart_Adams says:
February 4, 2009 at 3:00 pm (UTC -7)
Thun Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 9:45 am
Nobody, and I mean, nobody in 1998 was complaining that “Southern gangster rap is killing New york hip Hop.” At best, people wondered aloud “when did New York start bouncing?” And hardly anyone was espousing the concept that rap was dead. If anything, 1998 was awash with the notion that rap was filled with possibilities – commercial, artistic and otherwise – that were just beginning to unfold.
Thun, I was a 22/23 year old Rawkus vinyl bag wearing backpacker and yes there were a GANG of heads complaining about Southern Rap killing Hip Hop (namely No Limit and Cash Money). In my crowd we thought that while the commercial side was flourishing the music was going to shit. That’s why The Source was challenged by Ego Trip, On The Go, Stress, Mass Appeal, etc.
Starting in 1997 there was a slow exodus to the Underground Hip Hop scene to escape the Jiggy Era and the No Limit tank. By 1998, Sandboxautomatic.com, Duckdown,com, HipHopSite.com, UndergroundHipHop.com, 88HipHop.com, TheDSC.com and other sites were flooded with Hip Hop fans disallusioned with the major label Rap/Hip Hop scene of the time.
How old were YOU in 1998, 9? 10? 12? You couldn’t have been old enough to properly analyze/remember the transition from 1996-1998 after the Telecommunications Act was signed. No way in hell.
One.
Jordan says:
February 4, 2009 at 3:32 pm (UTC -7)
Douglas: I think we’re on the same page now, that niche markets stuff is sort of where I was going when I was talking about Killer Mike. You bringing up indie is interesting though, as to my outsider eyes, it seems like the “indie” consumer is one demographic, and stuff influenced by Teenage Jesus/Sonic Youth is being marketed to and consumed by the same people as music influenced by, say, Crosby Stills and Nash. I might be totally off-base here but if I’m right, how does hip-hop try to pull something like that off?
douglas martin says:
February 4, 2009 at 4:19 pm (UTC -7)
well, i think the whole “CSN being part of the same demographic as teenage jesus and the jerks” thing is partly due to the influence of pitchfork, where they’re writing for a certain type of demographic that want to be “educated listeners.” but, despite the stronghold pitchfork has on “indie” and alternative culture, not everyone wants to know about absolutely everything.
going further with the niche markets we’re talking about in hip-hop, i think that it may take after indie in the idea that very few acts are going to move serious units (obviously a trend in rap that has already started), with certain acts filling whatever niche and being canonized on a much smaller scale, but being canonized regardless.
Sach says:
February 4, 2009 at 8:39 pm (UTC -7)
Thun: “Nobody, and I mean, nobody in 1998 was complaining that “Southern gangster rap is killing New York hip Hop.”
False. Straight up and down. You know it, I know it. You were there? Well I was there. Online or off. If I had a dollar for every geek or demo-handling battle rapper complaining about No Limit and Cash Money back then I’d be living life like the Big Pimpin video by now.
I’m not disagreeing with you about the Ego-trip/Rawkus/”oh wow rap is 20 years old now” sense of retrospective but that in itself was partially a reaction against Def Jam, Interscope and the like. If not from the artist’s point of view then from the fans who wanted to support “real Hip Hop” and not “that fake shit”. I’m not going to spend my days digging up old album reviews (this ain’t an academic paper) but they’re there for perusal.
Obviously the mainstream publications (Source, Blaze, XXL) weren’t bothering with this shit: Hip-hop was suddenly a huge cash cow and there was absolutely no reason to bother with people complaining. Also, music writing wasn’t so self-reflexive back when you had to actually get stuff to print.
I’m not painting you as anti new-rap, I’m not painting you as anything really and have no idea why you’d think I’d want to get into a personal argument with you. This is a disagreement based on two (I assume) irreconcilable perspectives though and as far as I’m concerned you’re wrong on this one. If my writing is “intentionally vague” yours doesn’t see the forest for the trees and conveniently ignores far too much of what was going on. To say there was no backlash in 98 is patently false.
But I appreciate the reply, the point of this post was to spark intelligent debate/argument and it’s accomplishing that. The more perspectives the better as long as shit stays civil. Besides, we have one of these arguments about once a year anyways so this was about due.
Abe: Yeah, my perspective on the newest generation of emcees has definitely changed over the past few years as the situation has unfolded. I can’t reply to anything specific unless you name it but I’d be glad to take a look back at anything I wrote even a year ago and call myself on it if I think it was misguided. Perspective can be a motherfucker.
Dart: EXACTLY.
Everyone else: props for the discussion, let’s keep it moving.
Trey Stone says:
February 4, 2009 at 9:26 pm (UTC -7)
i’d agree with Abe Beame on the whole hipster as straw man deal, except that still being in my college bubble i think it might just be a matter of not being familiar with exactly who these people are. still, it bugs me when people seem to be basing their opinion of a new album on who likes it/who it’s supposedly aimed toward, hipsters/rock critics who supposedly don’t know anything about rap/whatever. that’s the vibe i got from some people with albums like the last Clipse album, “Carter III” and Kanye’s more recent albums, and to me it comes off as people straining to downrate good music for weak reasons.
in any case, thought-provoking post. i was kinda hoping you’d go in on people who’ve been acting like the new Kanye’s the end of the world after the opening paragraph, but then i dunno your opinion on that album. topic for another post i guess
Tray says:
February 4, 2009 at 10:50 pm (UTC -7)
“But there are a bunch of rappers with potential. Some of them are over thirty, others are mad you.”
Of course there are (though please, name some). But it’s like this year’s NBA draft, if you follow that sort of thing. There are obviously plenty of guys there who will still be in the NBA five years from now, just as there are a lot of up-and-coming rappers who have the potential to (a) actually put out an album, (b) put out a pretty good one, (c) hang on long enough to put out a second and third. But beyond that, this draft is mainly a draft of role players and just-okay starting point guards; similarly, the up-and-coming generation of rappers doesn’t feature that many superstars. There isn’t a Jay or a Nas or even a really compelling character like a DMX in this generation, so far as I can tell. There’s, like, a Busta Rhymes, maybe a Sadat X, a very poor man’s Andre – and what’s more discouraging, many of the rappers who were great only 3-5 years ago have gone so rapidly south, like 50, Jeezy, Luda, Jay, Cam, Chamillionaire, arguably Kanye but let’s not get into his special case. There’s such a vacuum at the top, and I don’t really see what’s replacing it. It’s not that the hipsters or the South is killing hip-hop, but it may be the case that gangsta rap has pretty much exhausted itself, while on the other hand, many of your non-gangsta rappers are too preoccupied with establishing their real hip-hop bona fides, and tiredly thwacking those who they feel lack them (see Lupe, Black Milk) and spending far too little time rapping about something other than rap. And to just bring out this all-purpose “rap’s always been alright so rap will always be alright” argument is weak. Hasn’t rock gone through pretty protracted dry spells at times after that medium’s brilliant twenty or so first years? These things do happen.
Thun says:
February 5, 2009 at 12:36 am (UTC -7)
@Dart – I was born in 1979. I didn’t hang out with Rawkus messenger bag sporting 4 elements Asian lunchtable virgins back then. I didn’t know of any to begin with. There were Rawkus records to be purchased in the bins of the local vinyl shop, but they were sitting their cozily alongside vinyl from DMX, Big Pun, DITC, Souls of Mischief, Dogg Pound, etc. One was also able to purchase CDs by Puffy and Juvenile and E-40 if he/she was so inclined. And you know what – I knew plenty of people who treated the whole scene like a buffet and sampled all kinds of flavors. I wasn’t especially wed to any one strain of rap myself – I remember copping CDs by L*Roneous and Jay-Z on the same day. It wasn’t a conscious attempt at eclecticism, I just enjoyed purchasing music and because this vinyl spot had four Technics hooked up for any patron to sample anything in the store, well I tried to take in as much as I could. And I wasn’t alone in this. I ran in extremely mixed crowds and distinctly remember vibing to everything from Camp-Lo to Juvenile to Abstract Rude to C-N-N during that time period. I also encountered simnilarly open-minded people online. As well as people who simply didn’t care about these supposed polarities and binaries. The rap world had gotten large enough to the point where you could enjoy what you liked without worrying a great deal about who was on top that week.
@ Sach: I didn’t say there wasn’t a backlash against Southern Rap. What I’m suggesting is that the criticism of it didn’t come from EVERY fan of NYC rap, and wasn’t always centered around the concept that rap was “dying” as a result. I encountered very few people in 1998 entertained the notion that Southern Rap was set to dominate all other forms forever. I don’t see how my take on this is somehow less valid than yourselves, especially when you’re too fucking lazy to cite a few sources when asked to do so.
Also, the main target of animus on the East Coast was our own Bad Boy Records, whose music was not really very similar to boom-bap save for a relative softening of drums and a tendency towards using samples from more obvious sources.
Sach says:
February 5, 2009 at 12:56 am (UTC -7)
“I was born in 1979. I didn’t hang out with Rawkus messenger bag sporting 4 elements Asian lunchtable virgins back then.”
This is my point though Thun. You didn’t hang out with them but there were a hell of a lot of them. Hell I remember you dissing the living shit out of them online on a daily basis for kicks (around 01 mind you, I don’t recall reading your online stuff in 98).
For sources: Hiphopsite, soundcircuit, rapmusic.com, tha real, mvremix, Hiphopinfity (okay, so those last guys were losers with no perspective but no more so than current indie websites reviewing rap). Take your pick of the ones that still exist. As for records: The Roots, Blackstar, Wu-Tang, J-Live and a good number of rappers relegated to 12′ singles were all getting their panties in a bunch over the state of hip-hop on at least one track.
I’m not saying your take isn’t valid (or at least no more so than you’re saying mine is) but if you’re going to say that I’m fabricating then I’m going to respond proportionately. At the end of the day, like I said it’s a healthy discussion and I appreciate that.
You’re definitely right about Bad Boy (and Death Row while we’re at it) but to me that only further proves my point that rap fans are always complaining about rap.
noz says:
February 5, 2009 at 2:27 am (UTC -7)
Exactly which J-Live record calls out Master P and Juvenile?
Abe Beame says:
February 5, 2009 at 7:17 am (UTC -7)
No one knows those people Trey. They see them in flannels, tight jeans and non prescription frames nodding their heads to “Wipe me down” at the bar and assume that guy or girl must suck. If they took the time to have an intelligent conversation they’d probably discover an interesting and eclectic taste in music not so different from theirs (If slightly less hip hop oriented.) + shitty fashion sense. Non-sequitur: As for Kanye, this is a must read: http://fourfour.typepad.com/fourfour/2009/02/making-sense-of-kanye.html
“I ran in extremely mixed crowds and distinctly remember vibing to everything from Camp-Lo to Juvenile to Abstract Rude to C-N-N during that time period. I also encountered simnilarly open-minded people online. As well as people who simply didn’t care about these supposed polarities and binaries. The rap world had gotten large enough to the point where you could enjoy what you liked without worrying a great deal about who was on top that week.”
Preach. I literally was that guy and so were all my friends, only substitute Rawkus, Necro, J-Zone and Bronx Science Records for Abstract Rude I don’t know who that is.
Thun says:
February 5, 2009 at 11:58 am (UTC -7)
Which Roots, Wu-Tang, Black Star, and J-Live songs echoed the sentiment that “Southern Gangster Rap is killing hip hop” again?
Your backlash is a fabrication for the simple fact that it’s a gross overgeneralization with no evidence to even support it in an amended form. I countered it with some anecdotal evidence that complicates your contention. Because that’s all it takes to deflate a gross overgeneralization.
The first time I heard anyone claim that Southern Gangster Rap was killing hip-hop was when I was in grad school in 2003. The people voicing the opinion were Southerners.
Let’s recap. Your history is revisionist because it can be deduced from logical inference that:
1) Not all fans of Rawkus-style hip hop listened to this style of music exclusively; it’s quite possible that the number who listened to some of this music in addition to other styles far exceeded the extreme fringe that lived and died by it.
2) Not all fans of Rawkus-style hip hop adopted the ideologies expressed on these records (most of which were NOT directed at the South in any way, shape, or form in 1998 anyway)
3) Criticism of the South has come from every type of listener in every geographic location; it is not limited to people most interested in NYC rap of the past; Southern gangstr rap music is hardly the only form of popular rap that was under attack in 1998.
4) I don’t see how your ruff childhood navigating the streetz of Montreal rife with demo-wielding rappers can possibly be considered normative or wholly representative. To expose this fallacy, all anyone has to do is offer an anecdotal counter-example, which I did.
Simple.
Sach says:
February 6, 2009 at 12:21 am (UTC -7)
1) Many did. Many more than you’re willing to acknowledge for the sake of your argument.
2) See 1
3) And I never said it was the only complaint. You seem fixated on that one point. I mentioned Swizz, I mentioned the increasing fixation on brand-names (note: INCREASING fixation. No one’s denying the Lol Lifes and the Dapper Dans their place in history), I mention a gang of factors that people were pissed off about, you harped on the south. It’s the same today: not everyone is fixated on the Nahright crowd as the problem with Hip Hop, it’s one aspect of the bitching.
4) Nor do I see how sippin Chardonay to your favorite Stretch and Bobito dub while on an Ivy League Campus gave you a ghetto pass but hey, rep that Dirty Jerz if it makes you feel good about yourself.
Again, your experience clearly wasn’t universal. You can harp on the sourthern aspect all day and night, that wasn’t the point of the post and I never claimed the hate was squarely aimed at the south. Nor did I claim that there was a shift overnight in 98 same as we didn’t go from Melle Mel to Posdnous in a day. these things are progressive, hiphop did become increasingly influenced by southern artists AND nothern artists with different ideas and ideologies than their predecessors, people did complain (many in 98) and in the end it wasn’t nearly as bad as they made it out to be. All of this is true and your anecdotal counter-evidence remains anecdotal.
Your results may and have varied but I stand by mine.
Oh and I didn’t say that the Wu-Tang, J-Live and Black Star songs took aim at the south. I said they complained about the state of rap. Don’t twist it and don’t get it twisted. I have no idea why you decided to be fixated on that one part of the post.